Indian Catholics March Through Elmhurst to Show Solidarity for Preserving Their Traditions
The peaceful rally passed in front of the Elmhurst home of Bishop Mar Jacob Angadiath of the St. Thomas Syro-Malabar Catholic Diocese.
Hundreds of members of the Syro-Malabar Knanaya Catholic Church, a Catholic group that originates in India, held a peaceful protest Sunday in Elmhurst. They marched by the hundreds down St. Charles Road, past the Elmhurst home of Syro-Malabar Bishop Mar Jacob Angadiath.
The purpose of the rally was to show solidarity among the Knanaya community; all are committed to preserving their community's traditions, which began in India 1,700 years ago.
The coordinator for the rally, whose name is Sciens (pronounced Sheens), said his church community originally migrated from the Middle East to India.
"We migrated to India to strengthen the church in India," said Sciens, whose name in Latin means, "One Who Knows."
"Ever since we migrated to India, we always had our own eccliastical systems," he said.
Today, those traditions are in jeopardy in the United States, he said.
"Our identity is maintained by members being born into the Knanaya community," he said. "Marriages in the church have to be between Knanaya man and Knanaya woman. That is the way the communities have been for hundreds of years."
He said when they established their eccliastic structures here in the U.S., they had expected they would be allowed to maintain those traditions.
"Recently, through an order, we were told that our community's traditions—membership in our churches—is not consistent with Catholic church traditions," he said. "We are trying to show the church they are not correct."
In the 1980s, 15 to 20 families raised an issue with the Catholic Church, saying the Knanayas were not inclusive. They presented the church as discriminatory.
Sciens said the church does not discriminate. Anyone is allowed to take sacrament or receive pastoral care through the church,
"The only thing we are saying is that when we create a personal parish for our community, that community identity must be protected in that particular parish because that's how we've always existed," he said. "That is our appeal and our plea."
"We were hoping all along that things would change—especially since the Syro-Malabar church came to existence in the United States," he said.
Members at the rally were from New York, Los Angeles and everywhere in between—hundreds of devotees—and all from the same family.
When asked if he was meeting new people from his church community at the rally, Sciens said, "No, we all know each other because we marry within the community. It's a huge family. That's why it's very difficult for us to accept a different system in our churches."
The Knanaya church includes a total of about 5,000 families, almost 20,000 people, he said. Members who choose to marry outside the Knanaya family are not considered part of the Knanaya family, however they can still receive sacrament, pastoral care and be welcome in the church.
But it's important to retain their traditions, Sciens said.
"Within this church, we have our own uniqueness," he said. "We're a mixture of Jewish, Indian and Christian traditions. We are kind of an interesting community, actually."
He said the goal of the march was not to protest, but rather to "make our plight known to the diocese and show we are united as a community," he said. "If it was a two-year tradition, we wouldn't worry, but it's 1,700 years. It's very difficult to change that. It's not possible. It's very easy to give it up, but it would take another 1,700 years to build it back up."
He said the community feels hurt by the Catholic church's decisions not to allow the Knanaya traditions.
"We have always been extremely helpful to the church. That was our original mission when we migrated to India, as well," he said.
"We would like to find a permanent, sustainable solution, because it affects not only Knanaya Catholics in the United States, but also all over the world."
Joseph Richard snodgrass
9:00 am on Monday, March 4, 2013
no one has to listen
Nathan
9:18 am on Monday, March 4, 2013
They should be protesting how the bishop can afford to live in his house.
Ken
2:52 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
Where is the house? Is it part of the church?
Karen Chadra
3:05 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
Ken, the bishop's house is in Elmhurst, but the church is not in Elmhurst.
Tomy Kudilil
6:25 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
No, they should be protesting families like Kalayil who began issue with Catholic Church. After losing KANA now they want to join our conventions what a shame.
George Mukulel
9:21 am on Monday, March 4, 2013
Let me say your news about the Indian catholic march was one sided. The specific group ‘Knanayas’ are only about 5000 in America. Their tradition is based on endogamy which is considered a bad practice. They want to continue endogamy in America. Knanaya Catholic bishop of India and Catholic hierarchy at Rome has already told they can not do this bad practice outside India. Means, they can not practice endogamy in America, which is a civil society. This small group, Knanaya, in America wanted to bring all these bad practice from India to America. Their idea is to create a pure community. Their fight is for a worthless cause.
If they wanted to practice endogamy due to purity reason of being a Knanaya and to proclaim that they have Jewish inheritance, please understand that Knanaya has no Jewish connection, and Knanaya is not a pure group. It is a mixed group; genetically Knanaya belong to the South Asian variety of Haplogroup L, which a lot of other Indian groups have. Means: From the results of the KANAIM family tree DNA project, the paternal ancestry is Dravidian. Majority of Knanayas are people of Indian origin; and a few are or Phoenician/Lebanese.
George Mukulel
Tomy Kudilil
6:24 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
This is a very unique community looking to preserve our rights and traditions, and membership only for people who are born as KNA.
George Mukulel
9:57 am on Monday, March 4, 2013
Why Knanaya Catholics want to practice endogamy in America? Endogamy is a traditionally a bad practice to keep ones own group pure by denying mixing with other people. That is a racist approach. These people are forcing their American born children for arranged marriage from within a group. This is wrong. The identity negotiation of American born second generation Knanaya women who are involved in endogamous relationships is a unique and challenging area that should be more closely examined. Their identities are continuously shifting, contradictory, and they frequently experience emotional stress as they navigate between the western and eastern worlds. These women face being too American by South Asian standards and too South Asian by American stands…part of two worlds, but belong to neither.
More often than not, Knanaya women’s voices are silenced and cultural gender norms and expectations limit these women from accessing services. Those that do seek out support are often faced with responding to cultural stereotypes of domestic violence and powerlessness in belonging to a “backward” and patriarchal ethnic community. While many of the cultural practices women experience are patriarchal in nature, Knanaya women need to be given the space to name their oppression and come to their own realization of how patriarchy impacts their lives.
Mareena
1:35 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
Oh, please. What a bunch of cow manure! No one is forcing anyone to marry someone they don't want to marry. Knanaya women, just like Indian women in general, have just as many rights as anyone to achieve the best for themselves and their families. We are not being suppressed. Indian women are educated, strong and family oriented. Most women of Indian origin you see in America today are flourishing.
Christine
3:13 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
The Asian & Pacefic Islander Institute on Domestic Violence in a study of 160 South Asian women (who were married or in a heterosexual relationship), recruited through community outreach methods such as flyers, snowball sampling, and referrals in Greater Boston:
= 40.8% reported ever experiencing “physical or sexual abuse by their current male
partners”; 36.9% reported some form of intimate partner violence in the past year.
= 30.4% reported having experienced partners’ physical abuse, and 18.8%, sexual abuse; 65.2% of the women reporting physical abuse also reported sexual abuse.
= 15.8% reported injury or the need for medical services as a consequence of a partner’s violence.
= No significant difference was found in the report of domestic violence between arranged marriages and non-arranged marriages. [Note: Arranged marriages refer to the practice of parents selecting a spouse for their adult child.]
Knanaya woman are not an exception and they are a part of south asian community. There is a lot of domestic violence issues and male dominancy going on in their community due to their traditional life style. Most of them are unreported.
JM
4:58 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
Nothing is forced, George. Anyone is free to marry whom they desire. Please do not attempt adding negativity with your assumptions of oppression and mistreatment of women, which is irrelevant to the subject at hand and untrue.
Paul E
7:11 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
Our protest on 3/3/13 was not about domestic violence, oppression of women or male supremacy. It is about ecclesiastical independence of Knanaya churches from the Syro Malabar Diocese, which is our right and have been practiced in India for over 1700 years.
Sunny M.
8:02 am on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
When you practice endogamy in a Catholic Church you are brain washing your children and women for endogamy, arranged marriage, marry from within the group, controlling your wife and children and adhere to tradition. So endogamy has a great influence on arranged marriage, oppression of women, male dominancy, violence etc. This is something like Muslims brain wash their children in the Madrasa, their church, to be violent and traditional.
Matthew
7:56 am on Saturday, March 16, 2013
Dear George Mukulel
Thank you for studying Our or rather knanaya traditions and history, now please mind your own business. Knanaya traditions cannot be changed by the geographical location.
Steve L
10:11 am on Monday, March 4, 2013
Alright, move along.
It's nice they were peaceful and respectful of Elmhurst during the protest (I drove by yesterday and watched curiously) and all. But now that I know what they were protesting about it leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.
chris
12:05 pm on Saturday, March 9, 2013
Brothers, do not take what I write here in the bad sense, but try to understand the reality and meaning of the word PURITY. We know that 90% of the so called Kanaya families are not fair in color, is that beacuse the sun in Kerala is giving them a tan , or are they all ,orginally from the back jewish or black Syrian Community.
No they are not, they are orginally from Syria,they have mixed their blood very much with Indian Dravidian heritage blood.
So now it is time to be practical. Each and every American(including the Indian americans) should be happy, if their children atleast get married to an opposite sex, if possible, to the same faith. We brought our children or bring them up in this country, where marriage has been defined differently, and here people are fighting over things that are not relavent in this century.
If Jesus comes back today, he will be very unhappy to see that people have twisted his Holy words into words of convenience.
Mike W
10:29 am on Monday, March 4, 2013
What was school districts role in this? Were they supportive and approved using Sandburg Middle School for this protest? Maybe its like the circus. We talked to our kids about this yesterday and will follow up with the details. Thanks for the info.
Flyfishnut
11:22 am on Monday, March 4, 2013
While walking my dog I spoke to a few police officers who related Sandburg School approved for the demonstrators to park on Sandburg property. What urks me is Elmhurst tax payers are footing the bill for the dozen or more police officers and vehicles on a Sunday to support this demonstration. These dollars could be better spent on sidewalk repair or installation of "No turn on red" signs at the intersection of Poplar/St. Charles.....
Melba Thomas
10:40 am on Monday, March 4, 2013
As a knanaya youth myself, I can say for sure that this protest was a waste of time. It is an individual's decision to marry whom ever they want, not a priest's or the religious fanatic's. They should try to keep their nose out of people's lives and decisions to marry who ever they want. It's not hurting them. Let's look at the situation in Kerala, where they strictly follow endogomy. There is no 1:1 male to female ration of unmarried. So those who look for a partner somewhere else are out. At this rate, those who would love to die for endogomy themselves will end up destroying the community.
Melba Thomas
10:43 am on Monday, March 4, 2013
As a knanaya youth myself, I can say for sure that this protest was a waste of time. It is an individual's decision to marry whom ever they want, not a priest's or the religious fanatic's. They should try to keep their nose out of people's lives and decisions to marry who ever they want. It's not hurting them. Let's look at the situation in Kerala, where they strictly follow endogomy. There is no 1:1 male to female ration of unmarried. So those who look for a partner somewhere else are out. So are they saying that if one can't find a suitable partner within Kna, they should live unmarried for rest of their life? Isn't that contrary to continual of the community? At this rate, those who would love to die for endogomy themselves will end up destroying the community.
Janie
10:56 am on Monday, March 4, 2013
For me, this article raises more questions than it answers. Why Elmhurst? Is the Diocese of Joliet denying them their own church? I'm a life-long catholic and this is the first I've heard of this.
Sunny M.
11:15 am on Monday, March 4, 2013
Janie: They belong to Syro-Malabar Diocese of Chicago, an ethnic diocese from India, which is under the direct supervision of Rome. They doesn't belong to Joliet or Chicago or any other diocese of America. They practice their own agenda like endogamy in the catholic church which is universal. This group disallows anyone to enter their church and participate and worship God. They are actually racial in nature or part of a caste system in India. They hate other people and they do not want to mix with other people. They teach endogamy to their children which is a philosophy of hating other people; that is unchristian. They are trying to import all the bad practices of India to this country. Most interestingly, they are naturalized citizens of America.
Indian catholic hierarchy stated that caste, with its consequent effects of discrimination and "caste mentality" has no place in Christianity. It is in fact a denial of Christianity - because it is inhuman. It violates the God-given dignity and equality of the human person. God created man in his own image and likeness. He accepts and loves every human being without distinction.
Tom C
1:20 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
Sunny M. is giving a half truth description about the Knanaya group; probably due to his limited knowledge. Sunny is correct that they are an endogamous group. However, anyone is free to attend mass at any church. Neither the Syro-Malabar rite Knanayas nor the rest of the Syro-Malabar Catholic churches will prohibit anyone from entering their churches for worship. Membership in their church is really the issue. Syro-Malabar is a rite within the catholic church. In an effort to maintain the various traditions, the Catholic church is comprised of many rites. Latin rite is the biggest of all and that is what we predominantly see all over the United States. Syro-Malabar people are supposed to be members of the Syro-Malabar rite churches. Latin rite people are supposed to be members of the Latin Rite churches. A person who belongs to the Latin Rite is not supposed to be a member of the SyroMalabar rite and vice versa. Within the SyroMalabar rite are Knanaya and non-Knanaya churches.
Another incorrect assertion is that they hate those people who are not knanayas. Absolutely false! Most of the Knanayas I know are very caring, educated and interact with the rest of the American society. They do promote their traditions and customs just like any other ethnic minority group.
Fact: Pope Pius X, now a Saint, granted the Knanayas their own diocese so that they can worship and grow due to the discrimination they faced at the time. As a result, the Knanaya group has flourished.
Zenith Ellankil
12:11 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
"The Knanaya church includes a total of about 5,000 families, almost 20,000 people, he said. "
Just to want to clarify that this is the case of North America only. There are approximately 180,000 Knanaya Catholics worldwide who follow the traditions and customs. Knanaya Catholics have their of ArchDiocese in Kottayam, India.
Karen Chadra
1:00 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
Thank you to everyone who has added comment here. I do not pretend to be an expert on their church or their traditions. After being contacted by many people yesterday wondering what was going on, I wanted to try to explain why they were marching. Whether their cause is right or wrong has been and will continue to be the subject of debate, and it seems opinions are strong on both sides of the issue. It was a peaceful demonstration, however, and it was held in Elmhurst because the Syro-Malabar bishop lives in the neighborhood where they marched.
George Mukulel
6:10 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
Karen, hope you will give the other side of the story. Hope you will talk to Bishop of Syro-Malabar church in Elmhurst to find out what is going on. These people are fighting with the Catholic church to practice endogamy in the church. These kind of protest will happen by them again in this neighborhood. People of Elmhurst need to know the truth and what is acceptable to them.
Paul E
7:04 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
Karen please ask the Bishop about the "pastoral decree" he send us in 12/2012 (2 months ago) which has provoked the protest.
m.joe
10:59 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
they were marching for regaining racial purity.Church authority is trying end this social injustice and civil right violation.I support Bishop for standing up to these fanatics.You should go and interview the bishop when you get a chance to explain his side to the local community.
Doug
1:46 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
Let me tell you, we don't want any kind of violence like in India in our neighborhood. It is better to get along in America. This is more a civilized society.
Tomy Kudilil
2:19 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
In 1980, the 15-20 families that started this mess with Catholic Church is KANA - lead by Kalayil family. Petition should begin to prohibit them from attending convention.
Thomas S
7:39 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
Stop aligating personally Tomy.Know the facts before you aligate. Don't blame others for your imperfections.
Luke Thomas
8:00 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
You just woke up a sleeping Lion by pulling its tail. This is a country where we have the freedom to live peacefully. Do not even attempt to import the extremism that is exhibited and practiced in India to this great country because each one of you will be no better that the al-Qaeda. You will be hunted down and be brought to justice. We want our next generation to have a better life free of any fear due to religious restriction or self-imposed baseless myths.
Luke T
thomas mathew
12:10 am on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
tomy Kudilil, i know its not you real name and if that was your real name you wouldn't have used it to make such a stupid comment, who told you that kalayil family want to attend the convention(hope you are referring to K.C.C.N.A convention) you know what happens in the convention people like you make the oppertunities for your teenagers to get f----d, and people like you call it as place to meet endogamas boy and girl, shame on you for attending these conventions and bringing your children their, i can say this because i have done this when i was a teenager
KANA
2:32 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
The Congregation for Oriental Churches position is “ The Knanaya Community can be faithfully conducted only on the basis that those Knanaya Catholics who married non-Knanaya spouses enjoy equal status in the ministry. This Congregation does not accept that the customary practice followed in Kerala, of excluding from the community those who marry non-Knanaya spouses, is extensible to the United States of America". Late Cardinal Bernardin said that in conscience he could not support such exclusionary practice in Catholic Church in the United States. We know that such practice breeds a sense of "classism" and racism and is totally out of keeping with the ecclesial or civil life in the United States. Church does not want to import such uncivilized practice to this country. This group p unfortunately does not get it…. sad truth. They want the Catholic Church to change their position. They forget that Christ died for our sin because he loved us. Christian church teaches inclusion and not exclusion. In many form church has said “racism” is sin.
Tomy Kudilil
6:26 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
KANA no longer exists we finished you long ago.
Sam Varkey
2:44 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
Practise Faith First. Love your neigbour.
Ken
2:49 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
It seems that every group and faction in this country wants its rights, identities and traditions protected. We see this mainly here with the black, Hispanic and Gay cultures. Most of the times they get what they want because our courts and our lawmakers side with them.
The one group that constantly gets trampled on is the group that believes in the values and traditions that this country was founded upon. Our language, heritage and traditions are constantly being eroded in the name of "diversity"---the new code word for affirmative action.
Rege K.
3:46 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
It is very unfortunate to note that some twisted opinions/comments are causing confusions to the general public related to the peaceful march we conducted yesterday. The truth is; ours is a strong knitted group with families who values Christian Life and very strong in Catholic faith. Our ethnic group with roots of over 1700 years of tradition existed and preserved our heritage crossing the seas of tempest from what was Mesopotamia - present day Iraq & Syria to the southern tip of India where St. Thomas the Apostle predicated the message of Christ. Our communities traditions and practices were conserved throughout the years when we faced persecutions, war, famine and even at the thresholds of immigrating to Europe, America, Australia and all other countries. Catholic Church always recognized our singularity and allowed our existence and created a separate eparchy/diocese in India which is now the archeparchy of Kottayam, Kerala, India (Metropolitan Arch Bishop). We are part of the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church (which is an East Syrian Rite, Major Archiepiscopal Church in full communion with the Catholic Church. It is one of the 22 Sui-juris Eastern Catholic Churches in the Catholic Church). ....................(contd).
Rege K.
3:47 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
Among our age-old customs and practices our ethnic community also cherish endogamous marriages within our community and promote it to keep our bonds stronger. However, as all ethnic communities in the world, we also have a few who defy and dessert our community structure and prefer to choose their spouses from outside our community. We do not have any problem when our brethren make such decisions, we do keep a very warm and friendly relations with them and mutually attends all family events or special occasions except for the fact that they are not considered members of our community any more. Our ethnic heritage demands its preservation and we do believe that all ethnicities and heritages has a role in the world in which we live today and ours is one among them. Many of those brethren live in peace and harmony cooperating with our society with no complaints since they know that the choice was theirs to leave the community. Here the irony and the issue is when a few among those few are trying to re-enter the community through a back door. 15 or 20 of them lodged complaints to the Chicago Bishop and Rome and obtained a rescript /advise from the Oriental Congregation to include them part and in par with our communities spiritual and ecclesiastical growth. ..............(Contd).
Cyriam
10:23 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
"However, as all ethnic communities in the world, we also have a few who defy and dessert our community structure and prefer to choose their spouses from outside our community."
"Many of those brethren live in peace and harmony cooperating with our society with no complaints since they know that the choice was theirs to leave the community. "
You leave them with no choice but to leave the community! And the fact that you used words like "defy and dessert" and then try to say that you have no problem, is in itself a negative connotation!
A lot of times, people genuinely cannot find someone compatible within the community because of uneven male:female ratio. What gives you the right to deny a child his/her community? Even if they marry a Syro Malabar (a Catholic community and your own diocese), the girl is no longer considered Kna. Does an Indian stop being an Indian, just because they marry an American? Does a Malayali stop being a Malayali just because she marries a Punjabi? I know of times when parents could not attend a convention because their adopted child was not Knanaya? What "tradition" are you trying to preserve here? When a family is doing everything to include a child as their own, how can a community try to do everything to keep him/her out? When do traditions go over the basic human rights/morals of a community.
Such elitist attitude can only create rifts between families..And no traditions can seal those.
~ A disappointed Kna
Paul E
10:59 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
Dear disappointed kna,
Before you left the community, you knew the rules of the Kna community. We practiced this for the past 1700 years as you know. Knanaya people are not at the verge of existence yet. There are lot of kna men and women all around the world. Your argument of uneven male:female ratio is absolutely not correct. Our conventions never declined a family from attending the convention because they had an adopted child. In fact we demanded that the adopted children given guest passes until the age of 18. This was demanded so that our fundamental principle of KNA could not be jeopardized. Stop making allegations about the whole community just because of your personal choice.
Yours loving Kna brother.
Rege K.
3:47 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
The oriental congregation issued this rescript without having proper representation/consultation with our community. A one sided act which will eventually obliterate our community. As a strong Catholic community of 180,000 members all over the world and about 20,000 people living here in the US, we decided to voice our opinion and protest against this injustice. Our Parishes/ Missions all over USA already send out pleas and memorandums to the Bishops and to Rome to revoke the rescript. Yesterday's peaceful march was yet another opportunity to showcase our solidarity of our community in adhering to our traditions to the Syro-Malabar Bishop of the US who lives in Elmhurst Chicago. We do not want to be adjudged by external forces who are deliberately obligating to size our existence. We strongly believe and hope that the customs and practices of a peace loving and strong in faith ethnic community as ours can survive.
s abraham
9:18 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
Rege K.:
After reading your description of the purpose of your peaceful protest, I must say that I wish your people all the best and god speed. The fight to maintain tradition in the today's world is commendable. There are many in this world and in this country who will try and destroy age old traditions in exchange for extremist ways. These folks don't understand that only through tradition do we have a foundation for our following generations to stand. As a fellow catholic, I wish you and your people the strength and god's grace to maintain your faith and your traditions for generations to follow.
Anie T
4:28 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
Knanaya people are strict catholics with great family values. We do not believe in violence. We are highly educated people who are productive US citizens who contribute to the US economy and pay taxes. We are loyal to this country and to our traditions. Our protest yesterday was an effort to preserve our age old tradition which the Syro Malabar diocese is trying to dissolve. Like any minority groups we have every right to protect our traditions.
m.joe
10:49 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
you were protesting to regain the right to expel the non endogamous(those who marry outside the community) This is cruel,unethical,uncivilized and unchristian.
This is against the American traditions and values.Don't try to bring back that dirty cast system from India.
Paul E
11:37 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
m. joe,
We never gave up the Kna right. Knanaya (means people born from kna parents and marry within the community). Does any of us look uncivilized, cruel, sad, or unchristian? We are a bunch of peace-loving people from South India who would like to continue our age-old tradition just like any other minority communities in the US. That is not against American traditions and values.
Sunny M.
7:50 am on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
Really! We are all tax payors. But your community has a large number of tax evaders. Many of your community members are cheating the government. How many of them get caught by IRS within the last two years? Many of them are paying a huge money as a settlement with IRS. Let us be honest.
Jimmy T
6:02 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
Hmmm what is this tradition that there trying to preserve? Don't get it, it keeps saying there trying to preserve tradition.....?
Paul E
6:42 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
Knanaya people have lot of cultural as well as christian traditions that are unique to our community that have been practiced for over 1700 years. When Knanaya missions were established here in the US over the past 7 years under the Syro Malabar Diocese we were told those churches will be Knanaya churches. Now after 12 churches being established under the Knanaya mission, allover the US, the Syro Malabar Bishop sends us a pastoral decree that we cannot practice our tradition in our own church, that us Knanaya people spend millions of dollars to buy. This is what provoked yesterday's protest.
m.joe
10:34 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
That is big fat lie, At the establishment decree of all these churches ,it was clearly mentioned that these churches are non endogamous knanaya parishes.
Paul E
7:21 am on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
Our Vicar General (Fr. Mutholam) read the decree in English that Knanaya churches are non-endogamous and then he translated in Malayalam (our ethnic language) that we are endogamous churches. That is how manipulative this priest is. Lot of older generation who does not understand English believes him. Until the last decree in Dec, 2012, as a community we were extremely cooperative with the church and Syro-Malabar Diocese, spending millions of dollars for the establishment of Knanaya churches across the nation. After the latest decree, the Knanaya people across the US united and we decided to demand ecclesiastical independence from the Syro-Malabar Diocese and to have our own Archdiocese just like in India. Our Archdiocese in India is part of the global Catholic Church which comes under the jurisdiction of Pope from Vatican. So this Archdiocese is already accepted in the Catholic Church. We are just asking to continue the same kind of Church here.
Rege K.
7:59 am on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
Joe, You are wrong in assuming that "the establishment decree of all these churches mentioned it is non endogamous Knanaya parishes". The decree established Knanaya parishes/missions and the word Knanaya has only one singular meaning and the church cannot make an addendum or change the description of what is Knanaya. The truth is we were misguided and defrauded by the clergy.
Thomas S
11:53 am on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
Reading the decree in Engish should be good enough? Why worry about older people who don't speak english? They are here to simply PASS THEIR TIME OR DO BABY SITTING FOR YOUR KIDS. WHAT GOOD CAN COME OUT OF THEM UNDERSTNADING OR NOT UNDERSTANDING? So long as you understood then, why protest now? Shame on you to claim that VG and Angady were hiding facts!!They could not have been any clearer. May be you were sleeping while the decree was read in all the churches at the inauguration ceremonies....
TOMY
10:40 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
For those who like to know about Knanaya please take a look at site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knanaya. They are 100 % Christians . All this mess created by a Vicar General of Syromalabar also in-charge of Knanaya region . I can tell now its a big time mishandling of power and Moneyby the VG .
Juliana Bonet
11:54 pm on Monday, March 4, 2013
Your traditions are only that...traditions. They are rules that were set by men.
The church is supposed to be set upon the teachings of Christ. He did not teach the "traditions" that you are speaking of. Your traditions have nothing to do with Christianity. That's the problem. You're trying to enforce a mere "tradition" as a Christain doctrine. But your tradition opposes scripture.
The Catholic church, along with other Christian churches, doesn't accept your tradition because it isn't scripturally based. Your tradition is opposition to scripture and Christian teaching.
jK
12:12 am on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
@Juliana Bonet Actually.. the Catholic Church does accept our traditions. In India, we have our own arch diocese. (http://kottayamad.org/) Prior to the formation of the syro-malabar diocese, we were also recognized by many RC diocese across the country including our membership criteria. I can see how one can see this as not that big of a problem, but for us it is. This is WHO and WHAT we are. We are just like a Catholic of ANY race, we just have a set of traditions we follow. As far as the Syro-Malabar diocese, they are trying to manipulate us and take control of our churches. We have set up and paid for many churches across the US and now they want to take control over it. Money and power are main factors in this, in my opinion. We have attempted on many attempts to talk this out and work towards a common goal but the opposition is not responsive and unwilling to hear our needs.
thomas mathew
12:38 am on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
to all the people writing comments on this issue, why don't you all go back to your country where you are allowed to practice this and leave us alone in this country
Manasakshi
7:39 am on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
If we are practising it in our country tht is US as we are citizens of this country, what harm you have. Why you want us to go back to another country where as our country at present is US. Of course, we came from India like you. We have the same right as you have. We have the same right to believe what we were taught from our childhood and we are proud of that
Thomman Kinan
9:56 am on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
Everybody other than a Native American came here from somewhere. If they all go back what will be this country be like? Will there be any technical superiority to this country over others? Will this country be a super power at all? It is the immigrants that made this country what it is. Enjoy America and be proud to be an American.
Thomas S
7:52 am on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
Some of the comments have exceeded the marginal ettiquette. One of the instigator is Tomy Kudilil (if that is his name). Stop alligating personally. If you cannot succeed on your own, do not blame others for your shortcomings. Mr. Kudilil, please start looking turing around once in a while to see who will be behind you. You may be surprised. To all, please be cordial, you have nothing to loose being cordial.But you have a lot to loose if not!! You blame the Kalayils for the rescript, shame on you. Why don't you blame the Thachets, Kunnathukizhakethils, Koovakattils, Thottapurams, and all the others who signed the petition to Rome? You idiot, you are spitting on yourself!!!
Real Knanaya
8:35 am on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
One thing no one is paying attention is whether this rally was to protect the rights of an ethnic community or to inculcate the community's ethnic practice into Universal catholic church. As a community with age old traditions and practices, Knanaya community has the right to protect them in thier community and I don't think any one can deny them as long as they are within norms of the civilsed world and the US civil laws. Bringing the ethnic practice of endogamy into universal catholic church by by pressure and tactics like this rally will only weakens church's position and destroy its nature of universal christian brotherhood. Either its leaders like Sheins, an educated person, don't get it or trying to become a leader exploiting the communal feelings of knnaya community.
Thomas S
8:58 am on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
Shein's intention was to walk out with a thunder and he accomplished it. In the light of his meeting with Mar Alenchery, he should have stopped this protest. Now he alianated Mar Allenchery and also Mar Angadiath who simply obeyed a command from Rome. The newly elected President Tomy Myalkarapourath now walked into a mess leftr by Sheins and his Protégés. Shame on Sheins (who claims to be highly educated and a deserving leader). Sheins should have had the decency to push the kna Bisops to appeal rome's decision. It is the kna community's and kna Bishops' necessity, not Mar Alenchery's or Angadiath's. Well what is kna anyway? (Kanda Narikalude Association)
Anie T
10:04 am on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
Dear Sunny M,
Your comments regarding comparing Kna community to Muslims is absolutely inappropriate and invalid. First of all Muslims are not terrorists. Muslim religion or Quran does not teach people to abuse their women and children. Same goes to traditional jewish community, they encourage that their kids learn about their culture, but does that mean they are all abusive to their families.
Same goes to Knanaya people, just because we encourage endogamous marriages does not mean we are abusive. In fact lot of kids choose to marry outside and we get along with them perfectly. The only restriction they have is they cannot be parish council members in knanaya churches. But they can come to church and get all spiritual and pastoral care from knanaya churches just like any other catholic church would offer. Please stop mixing things up, Syro Malabar Diocese wants to see us extinct so they can keep our churches and money.
Christine
11:51 am on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
All this traditional religions and communities brainwash their children for unnatural. Knanaya community brainwash their American born children for endogamy and arranged marriage. It is a true fact happening in all Knanaya church.
Thomas S
12:03 pm on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
You are correct Chrisine.....When will they learn not to mess with children's mind????
Matt
12:43 pm on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
As a Knanaya man married to a Syro, I feel that I have a relatively unbiased opinion. I support the traditions of the Knanaya community. Their cultural rituals do not affect neither me or you. I do not understand the commotion. Let them continue practicing.
Anie T
1:09 pm on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
Syro-Malabar should have no say in the membership of Knanaya churches. We spend our own money to build these churches. Knanaya people should decide on our membership. We have only one rule and that is the kna rule. Those who don't want any part of it please leave us alone.
Juliana Bonet
2:05 pm on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
Endogamy is not even mentioned in the bible. How can you exclude a person from being a member of your parish unless they practice that? How can you base being a member of your parish on something that Christ never mentioned? What is important to your church? Endogamy, which is a man made tradition, or the teachings of Jesus?
If you want to maintain your traditions, that's a personal choice and up to you. But keep them outside of the church and seperate. You can't make the traditions into the basis of a person being a member of the church...since it's not mentioned in the bible, not a teaching of Jesus and not a Christian belief for those reasons.
You can't expect your traditions be accepted by the Catholic church here, or any other church here. To the church your traditions are of no importance. They are human based, not spiritually based. God doesn't care if your ethnicity is pure.
Do you really think God would accept you asking your Christian brother to leave His {God's} church based on your tradition? You are turning a fellow Christian out of a Christian church for doing nothing against God. Who's church is it? Who should set the rules for a Christian church? The word of God or a man made tradition? Why even bother going to church if your going to make your own man made rules and not care what God says about it?
J.P.
4:00 pm on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
@ Juliana Bonet....
Maybe you need to go back and read the entire Bible from cover to cover. Marrying from your own tribe(aka endogamy) is mentioned in several areas of the Bible.n Make sure you read the Bible and then come back here and write your comments.
Juliana Bonet
4:46 pm on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
The new testament of the bible does not mention it. It is not a teaching of Jesus. Jesus never mentioned it. This church is question is supposed to be a Christian church. The old testament mentions things like this from thousands of years ago. We, as Christians, are not living under Jewish traditions from thousands of years before Christ . This kind of thing doesn't have any place in Christianity and that's why the church here is not accepting these views. This whole protest is from a minority of people trying to push their man made tranditions upon the chuch. The church says no for a reason....for the reasons I stated. I'm sure the leaders of the church have read their bible from cover to cover also. The difference is that they understand what it says.... and it says that you are not allowed to exclude someone from the church for marrying outside your "tribe".
Paul E
6:19 pm on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
We are not trying to push an ethnic tradition on the whole global Catholic church. That is out of question. We are merely asking to continue our tradition in Knanaya churches alone that we bought with our own money. Our tradition is closely intertwined with the the church because our ancestors were missionaries to India. We all know a person is a combination of social, cultural, religious, ethnic background. Religion itself does not make up a person. We are social beings. Since this custom has been practiced and our church is recognized as a Catholic church for the past 102 years by Pope Pius X, we are simply asking to continue the same set up in our churches here in the US.
CyriacK
8:00 pm on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
Protesting in front of a bishop-less house in Elmhurst does nothing other than show our Ethnic group's solidarity. If getting the 1986 re-script overturned is step 1 in achieving our final goal, then those who signed that original document should be held accountable now. KCCNA should not allow anyone from those families that falsely signed that document in 1986 the ability to take part in OUR organizations and conventions. When those families are unwelcomed at OUR conventions and unable to take part of OUR society that they were so insistent on destroying back in 1986, then they'll begin to see things OUR way on their own. For every action their must be an equal and opposite reaction.
Thomas S
8:14 pm on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
In your dreams CyriacK! Wake up before your dream gets shattered! By your argument, Thottapuram must be the first one you should kick out and then others!! Then people in your home!
Alex
11:01 pm on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
Knanaya endogamy people are the racist community they hate non-knanaya malayalees. If their brother or sister or daughter marry non-knanaya christian then they will remove them from the community and treat as enemies. They do not allow to join with their children and go to same church. My opinion these are the most dangerous people. I am knanaya I know their revenge mentality. Better non-knanaya malayalees stay away from this community. They are claiming they cannot mingle with impure malayalees because their blood is pure their father Jewish. But educated generation of knanaya reject this stupid story and marry from out side.
Alex C
11:02 pm on Tuesday, March 5, 2013
Knanaya endogamy people are the racist community they hate non-knanaya malayalees. If their brother or sister or daughter marry non-knanaya christian then they will remove them from the community and treat as enemies. They do not allow to join with their children and go to same church. My opinion these are the most dangerous people. I am knanaya I know their revenge mentality. Better non-knanaya malayalees stay away from this community. They are claiming they cannot mingle with impure malayalees because their blood is pure their father Jewish. But educated generation of knanaya reject this stupid story and marry from out side.
Anonymous
8:53 am on Saturday, March 9, 2013
I do not know where you are getting this information from, but we do not treat those that do not marry Knanaya as enemies or seek out revenge. Additionally, all are welcome in our church. As stated in previous comments, many non-Knanayas have attended our masses. As a Knanaya who has members of my family that have married non-Knanaya, I find your comment offensive. Please do not use your own personal experiences to define an entire community. A case study should not be used to define an overall concept.
Jim R
1:49 pm on Thursday, March 7, 2013
"SYRO-MALABAR RITE DEBATES LITURGICAL PATRIMONY
by Anto Akkara
The eighth synod of the Syro-Malabar Church (SMC)-- one of the
world's largest Eastern-rite Catholic churches-- ended November 15
in Ernakulam, India, the seat of the 3.2 million-member church on
November 15, with the SMC bishops once again resolving "to strive
to bring about liturgical unity."
The synod "reviewed the existing differences of opinion in the
Syro- Malabar Church and opined that bringing about liturgical
unity is the effective way to end the controversy. Steps in this
direction are being taken," said a SMC press statement on the
Synod, which took up two weeks and was attended by 21 of the 23
bishops of the SMC.
The Syro Malabar Church (SMC) in India traces its heritage back to
St. Thomas the Apostle. After an early flirtation with the
Nestorian heresy, the Malabars were restored to full communion
with Rome in the 16th century. "
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/SYROMALA.TXT
Jim R
1:51 pm on Thursday, March 7, 2013
Diocesan Office
St. Thomas Syro-Malabar Diocese of Chicago
372 South Prairie Avenue
Elmhurst, Illinois 60126-4020
http://www.stthomasdiocese.org/
"History of St. Thomas Syro-Malabar Diocese, Chicago
His Holiness Pope John Paul II established St. Thomas Syro-Malabar Catholic Diocese of Chicago on March 13, 2001. Mar Jacob Angadiath is appointed as its first bishop and his Episcopal Ordination was held in Chicago, together with the inauguration of the diocese, on July 1, 2001"
http://www.stthomasdiocese.org/articles/history-st-thomas-syro-malabar-diocese-chicago
Jim R
2:00 pm on Thursday, March 7, 2013
"Bishop Mar Jacob Angadiath
Mar Jacob Angadiath, Bishop of St. Thomas Syro-Malabar Catholic Diocese of Chicago, was born on October 26, 1945 at Periappuram in Elanji Panchayat of Ernakulam District, in the State of Kerala, India. His parents were Ulahannan and Mariam Angadiath.
His home parish is St. John the Baptist Catholic Church, Periappuram, in the diocese of Palai.
...
...
...
It was on March 13, 2001, the first Syro-Malabar Diocese outside India, namely, St. Thomas Syro-Malabar Catholic Diocese of Chicago was established and he was appointed the first Bishop of this newly formed diocese, by His Holiness, Pope John Paul II. His Episcopal ordination took place in Chicago on July 1, 2001, during the Second Syro-Malabar Convention. His Beatitude Mar Varkey Cardinal Vithayathil was the main celebrant of the Consecration ceremony; Mar Joseph Pallickaparaupil, Bishop of Palai, and Mar Kuriakose Kunnacherry, Bishop of Kottayam, were the co-consecrators. His Eminence Francis Cardinal George was the homilist during the Holy Qurbana. Mar Jacob Angadiath’s diocese is extended all through the USA and he is the Permanent Apostolic Visitator to Canada."
http://www.stthomasdiocese.org/bishop
.
Rohan Thampy
8:42 am on Monday, March 11, 2013
I am glad this discussion has extended to a wider audience through American Media. The protest was to allow their Endogamy practice to continue in America. Knanaya people believes that if one among them marry anyone from a non-knanaya community then they are traitors of the community and they will not be allowed to continue their traditions. It is not a protest to preserve their traditions but to continue their discriminatory practice in America which is against Catholic or Christian teachings. This community was warned already by Catholic church about this practice many years ago as this community is under Catholic denomination but they continue to ignore this.
Christian
3:57 pm on Sunday, April 28, 2013
What the heck is everyone so angry about, isnt this a free country? All humans can be linked by there DNA to africans so what??? is this an issue about religion or tradition? it sounds ludicrous ...kna or not kna who is anyone to judge... those without sin cast the first stone... malayalees prefer marrying malayalees ... does that make them racist? so if knas wanna marry knas to preserve there traditions why should is bother anyone? let people choose how to live and what to practice... defaming a trying to disgrace an entire community because of what they want to practice is very low class. why are people snooping around in other people's finaces to see if they have any tax evasions? dont you people have families and homes of your own...you personally dont know if people are struggling with finances or something so why are you judging?? Jesus said all of Abraham's decedents will be as numerous as the stars in the sky .... isnt this a form of endogamy? as indians we all still practice indian traditions... if the white roman catholic church told you its wrong to only mary indian would you not fight to preserve your identity? Stop talking ignorantly and insulting peoples way of life... Jesus also was an outcast ... the jews persecuted him... and all he did was preach love... all you people are preaching is hate..im sure in his eyes none of you can claim christianity but rather claim ignorance and hatred. We do not live for man we live for God, something to think about!